BY REBECCAH WAFF COPE
A place comes alive through the stories that people tell about the experiences they had there. Whether old or new, thriving or dilapidated, the tales animate the scene and provide the character of a place. The community comes to life as well.
Sitting off S. Main Street in downtown Holly Springs, half hidden in weeds and vines, is a two-story building with much character of its own. Made of cinder blocks, wood, and bricks, it rests one block from Town Square. Small in comparative stature to the new buildings, its history and importance to townsfolk are huge, especially to the Black folks who grew up there, found family, gathered together for good times and great music, and together built a long-lasting local legacy.
Affectionately known as the Pack-House, this now unoccupied structure was built in 1952 by one of the town’s prominent Black citizens, George Talmadge Grigsby, Sr. In danger of being lost and in need of preservation, a movement is afoot to save the Pack-House, as well as the much older residence that belonged to the Grigsby family. These two structures are the last historical buildings left of a thriving African American community which comprised the majority of the people who were living in the Town of Holly Springs for more than four decades.
Grigsby Sr., or ‘Ted’ as he was called by some people, in addition to being a respected educator, was a proficient carpenter, plumber and electrician, and he taught these skills to others in town. According to Johnny ‘Pete’ McNeil, age 74, Grigsby Sr. made the cinder blocks that were used in the building and built several apartments behind the Pack-House.
Bernice Lassiter named the Pack-House, according to his daughter, Victoria Judd. Mr. McNeil, whose father, John McNeil, now age 98, was Grigsby Sr.’s landlord at one point, said the Pack-House got its name because it resembled a farming-related tobacco barn and tobacco was at times graded inside.
The first floor of the Pack-House served as a store and dance hall, and there were also living spaces for local residents (two apartments upstairs and one downstairs). Mr. George Kimble, age 78, said the “pool hall was added later”—this being the left side addition. There was also a “club” space on the lower right side of the building where, according to Patricia ‘Ann’ Judd Adams, age 78, card-playing took place.
The store was run by George Grigsby, Sr. and his wife, Gladys Natal Stinson-Grigsby, and then later by ‘Ms. Gladys’ when she became a widow (Grigsby Sr. died in 1965), with assistance from Annie Belle Collier. Mrs. Collier’s husband, German, ran the pool room. He was the stepfather of Parrish ‘Ham’ Womble who served nearly three decades as a Holly Springs town board member and for a year as mayor.
Next door there was a blacksmith shop, run by Lattie (or ‘Lat’) Rogers. Margaret Prince, age 83, remembers metal shoes being made and put on horses and mules. James ‘Kelso’ Adams, who is in his early 80s, remembered that too, and when people would hitch their horse- or mule-drawn wagons to posts while attending in-town church services. The blacksmith operation shut down in the 1960s, when Mr. Rogers passed away.
As it states on the UNC “George Talmadge Grigsby Papers, 1870-1980” website (https://finding-aids.lib.unc.edu/04703/), Grigsby Sr. was a graduate of Hampton Institute (later Hampton University), as were several of his siblings. He worked as professor and administrator (i.e., acting director of industries and trades) at Saint Paul’s School, Lawrenceville, Va. He was highly trained in a variety of tradesman skills. He and his brother, W.J., were the first licensed Black electricians in NC. He was “an influential guy and a businessman who was known to make speeches,” according to Mr. Prince.
Ms. Gladys graduated from the Durham State Normal School in 1924 and earned a master’s degree at Shaw University in 1928, after which she taught in North Carolina and Virginia public schools and worked for the Baptist Church. She met George Grigsby Sr. in Virginia, and they were married in 1938 in Holly Springs, NC. After George’s death, Ms. Gladys was active in business, civic, and Holly Springs First Baptist Church activities, in addition to running the Pack-House.
The Grigsbys lived in a beautiful Queen Anne-style house which had been owned by Ms. Gladys’ mother, Alberta McLean-Stinson, and grandmother Harriet Ragland-McLean, on land purchased from John Kent in 1887. The house still stands on Grigsby Avenue (known as Old Fuquay Road until 1951), across from Oak Avenue where Grigsby Sr. walked to and from the Pack-House (and according to Jimmy Garrett, age 83, he carried a bag of change with him). Carol Sampson, age 59, went inside as a child and marveled at the state-of-the-art smooth-topped cookstove the Grigsbys owned, while Kenny Herndon, age 60, had admired the Grigsbys’ antique furniture.
As a little girl, Doris Battle, now age 65, used to position herself on the school bus so that she could easily see this special residence out of her window. She “imagined a princess coming out on the balcony of this impressive house, owned by the well-respected Grigsby family.” She did occasionally see Ms. Gladys headed to her car as the bus drove by. Ms. Battle added that the “Grigsbys were leaders in the Black community of Holly Springs—their efforts in education, service, worship and brotherly kindness, helped to make Holly Springs what it is today.”
The Grigsby house is likely the oldest African American private residence left in Holly Springs. The oldest part of it dates to around the year 1900. An old hitching post still stands out front. Major changes were made over time, including the removal of several turrets. Years ago, town historian Barbara Koblich interviewed Cora Mae Lassiter, now deceased, who lived two doors down from this house, and she’d remembered when the original house was built and said part of it had been enclosed into the new building.
The Grigsby house has not been occupied since the time when Ms. Gladys passed away in 1988. According to Ms. Koblich, a historic preservation specialist with Capital Area Preservation, Jeremy Bradham, was able to go inside the house a few years ago with a business associate of Grigby’s son, Dr. George Talmadge Grigsby, Jr., and Mr. Bradham found the house to be “like a time capsule.” Ms. Koblich said it is “a beautiful house” that she would “love to see preserved.” She said you could tell that “Ms. Gladys was very proud of her home.”
People who had met Ms. Gladys said she was “friendly” and “a very fine lady” (Larry Dewar); a “sophisticated lady” (Pete McNeil); a “pillar of the community, teacher and community leader” and “an elegant, well dressed person who really cared” (Kenny Herndon); and a “guardian, entrepreneur and businesswoman, and a no-nonsense woman to be admired” (Carol Sampson, who added that “Ms. Gladys loved us”). Ms. Gladys was thought of as the “matriarch of the community” and folks Ms. Koblich interviewed said she was a “warm and wonderful lady.” Several folks mentioned that Ms. Gladys “really cared about education” and gave gifts to students who graduated from high school.
Kenny Herndon hung out at the Pack-House as a teenager (and hopes to do so again). He raked the yard, added kerosene to the boiler and did other chores for Ms. Gladys (“she’d put you to work but she was always there for you”). She gave him a surprise gift which he never forgot. He wanted to join the Boy Scouts but could not afford the gear. One day, Ms. Gladys told him to go outside the Pack-House to meet Walter Garrett, the local troop leader. Mr. Garrett handed him a Scout uniform, backpack, sleeping bag, and cooking utensils, all of which Ms. Gladys had purchased. She said, “Kenny, you’re a sweet kid and you should have what other kids have.” Mr. Herndon said, “I wore that uniform all the time, like I was in the military.”
Ms. Gladys kept the Pack-House open for unusual hours, serving the community when there was a need, sometimes late into the night when someone was sure to escort her home at closing time. Almost anything needed by the community was available there. The Pack-House was open until 1988 when Ms. Gladys passed away. Mr. Herndon said his mother kept a tab for groceries with Ms. Gladys and he wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people owed her money when she died.
While the front door of the Pack-House is now boarded up with plywood, it used to be that everyone in Holly Springs was welcome to cross its threshold and step inside where there was a sales counter and drink box on the left and a dance floor and a “piccolo” (jukebox) on the right. Mr. Kimble said it was like “a convenience store and recreation center” combined. He mentioned that “clothing items and some snack foods were sold there.”
Catina Betts Liverman lived across the street. Her uncle, Larry Betts, helped to build the Pack-House and her father, Sam, hung out there a lot. She remembers walking across the wooden floor to get to the jar of “the best lemon cookies.” She bought 10 cookies for 10 cents. She said it was a “store with everything” and “you could buy bread, eggs, drinks, and more.”
Kenny Herndon bought the cookies “two for a penny” (not enough to share). Besides lemon, there were coconut, chocolate chip and gingerbread cookies, stored in a round jar. He remembers the sound of the jar being unsealed, which still induces salivation when he thinks about it. Mr. Herndon said that he liked to buy Baby Ruths and 16-ounce bottles of Coca-Cola, which required a nickel deposit, although he noted that Ms. Gladys let them slide on that. He said you could collect bottles from nearby streets and get a free soda when you traded them in. There used to be a big Coca-Cola sign across the street with the words “Pack-House’’ on the bottom of it. Mr. Herndon wonders where it might be now.
Carol Sampson often visited the Pack-House and thinks of it as “home.” George Kimble noted “there were few places to get groceries in town” other than Green Prince’s shop behind the First Baptist Church on Grigsby Avenue (where ice cream was sold for a nickel) and Percy David (‘Pee Dee’) Woodard’s store on S. Main Street, which later became a barbershop. This building still exists.
Folks interviewed for this article also mentioned there was a grocery store at the other end of town run by Paul Cummings (it used to be next to the brick bank and was where you could purchase chicken, fat back and flour), and Tom Lashley’s hardware store (where Dewar’s Florist Antiques is today and where you could buy tools, tomato plants, and butter and snap beans, among other items), and also Ed Mim’s drugstore.
Many food items were sold at the Pack-House. Pre-frozen Fisher sandwiches could be put on the grill. (Pete McNeill liked the cheeseburger.) Irene Stinson-Johnson, age 78, fondly remembers the honey buns, as did other people, including Jimmy Garrett who also mentioned fig bars, Baby Ruths and Butterfingers, and potato chips, along with sodas. Ann Judd, who walked to the Pack-House to “dance and drink sodas,” liked “all the snacks” especially the potato chips, popcorn, ice cream (which could be combined with sugar cookies that “had a hole in the center” to make into ice cream sandwiches), along with cookies “shaped like sunflowers.”
Dancing happened mainly on Sunday afternoons. Carol Sampson said the Pack-House was “THE place to dance”—though there were other clubs in the area such as the Fish Palace, Barn and Blue Velvet Lounge (previously the Blue Sky Inn). Ms. Sampson would walk to the Pack-House in the afternoon and stay until just before dark. She remembers having “the most fun” and said adults would toss coins towards the kids to put in the jukebox so that they could watch them dance. George Kimble remembers girls wearing “dresses with stand-out slips.”
George Kimble said it was “THE meeting place in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s!” and that you could “come and go as you pleased.” Jimmy Garrett said what he liked best was “the partying.”
Mr. Garrett noted that men’s socks were sold near the dance floor, probably because so many pairs were worn out while dancing the ‘Sand’ and making other fast moves with the ladies. Tunes were played on the jukebox from musicians such as Al Green, Jerry Butler and Shep and the Limelites. Mr. Garrett lived in Fuquay-Varina and hitchhiked his way to the Pack-House because “that’s where you could meet girls.” Thomas Tillage, age 78, also danced there, as did several of the other people interviewed for this article.
Kenny Herndon said, “If anybody was anybody, they’d go to the Pack-House.” At one point, there was even a ‘Miss Pack-House’ (Phyllis Utley, who worked with Ms. Gladys) and she rode in a parade in Ham Womble’s 1953 green and white Chevy. Ms. Liverman remembers convoys of soldiers being bussed through Holly Springs—they’d roll down the bus windows in interest of the scene and she’d shout, “That’s the Pack-House!”
Many folks remembered the benches near the blacksmith shop in a grove of oak trees, where people gathered and kids listened to tales told by their elders and learned important life lessons. These benches were apparently also where you could go and drink, as Ms. Gladys wouldn’t let that happen at the Pack-House, although George Kimble said a few folks were allowed to “share cocktails” with her which were stored under the counter, and Thomas Tillage bought wine and beer there, but you didn’t drink it on the premises.
Mr. Tillage played pool and so did Kenny Herndon, who got in trouble a few times with the manager, German Collier, for catching the ball before it went down the pocket. It was 25 cents a game and he and his friends didn’t have a lot of money. When caught doing this, Mr. Collier would make them leave the pool hall.
Mr. Herndon and his friends also played foosball in the pool hall. He mentioned Donnell McLeod, an Army man, who could spin the ball and hit it before you could move your player. He also remembers having fun watching folks playing checkers outside, noting, “They were quite serious about it.” He said people like Walter Rogers and Jim Norris played checkers, as did Tom Tillage who claimed he was “pretty good.”
Kenny Herndon can’t recall when the Pack-House closed, but at some point he realized he missed it. The Pack-House was an important community center, especially for young folks who had few places to go other than the park with ballfields that once existed where the cultural center is today. (George Kimble managed two ‘Silver Stars’ softball teams there, one for boys and one for girls. Kenny Herndon was on the team and is grateful for the experience. He said that lots of teams wanted to play against them.)
Angie Staheli, the author and director of Finding Patience, the play focused on town history, highlighted the Grigsbys and included a plea to save the Pack-House. She noted that a few white folks interviewed by her in the past had the impression that the Pack-House was a dangerous place, but across the board, the Black community members she spoke with had fond memories of it. “This was an interesting discrepancy, but it further motivated me to learn about and seek to honor the experiences of those who spent the most time at the Pack-House—the Black community,” reflected Ms. Staheli.
Larry Dewar, who delivered bouquets of flowers to Ms. Gladys (roses or an English spring garden) from her son, Dr. Grigsby or ‘Talmadge’ as he was locally known, who by then was living in Nevada, said he felt safe going to the Pack-House as Ms. Gladys wouldn’t let anyone cause harm to others. He got along well with Ms. Gladys—they met when they were both working at Ivey’s Department Store—and she introduced him to her son, Dr. Grigsby, about whom Mr. Dewar said, “We became the best of friends and remained so throughout his life.”
After Ms. Gladys died, the Pack-House and Grigsby home became the property of Dr. Grigsby. A friend and business associate of his in Holly Springs watched over these properties but he regularly returned to town to attend community meetings and reunions of the Fuquay Consolidated High School, which he attended as a child. (He dedicated the book he wrote with long-time friend Dr. Lucius Blanchard—Black White and Carolina Blue—to this school and was a big supporter of the school’s High Scholarship Fund.) Family members said he felt strongly about his roots and did a lot of work restoring the Grigsby house and keeping up its gardens.
According to Barbara Koblich, who met Dr. Grigsby once, he was a “true Southern gentleman” and “an interesting, well dressed, well-spoken person.” He had served in the Air Force and was Chief Medical Officer when stationed in Kansas, and later worked at several VA Hospitals and health clinics. He traveled to many places in the world and loved all kinds of art. He was fond of the wooden cow cut-outs which are in the yard of the Grigsby house. He and his parents loved their church, the First Baptist Church in Holly Springs.
Over the years, he had spoken to several people, including potential investors, about his vision for the Pack-House, which focused on a new entertainment gathering place and niche wine bar or brewery, with adjoining art studios. Unfortunately, Dr. Grigsby was unable to see his vision through to reality as he passed away on February 3, 2021. His Holly Springs properties are currently tied up in a trust and their fate is unknown.
A petition was recently started on change.org to “help us save these Holly Springs historic sites” and currently has almost 500 signatures. The petition was begun by the NC Forgotten History Committee, with its founder and chairwoman Doris Battle and other local historians J Dwayne Garnett, Warren Holleman, Angie Staheli, and Barbara Koblich. On the petition website, Dr. Cynthia Donnelly wrote that she’d “love to see the Pack-House rocking and rolling again! It should be a great place to eat and hear soulful music.”
Catina Liverman “would love to see our history preserved,” and Barbara Koblich believes that the Pack-House “legacy needs to be preserved, even if the building can’t be saved, due to its condition.” She feels the same about the Grigsby house and noted that “indigenous people have lost so much” and “we need to celebrate and hear the stories of the Black families.”
Angie Staheli noted that the Grigsbys were a family who brought the Black community together and the Pack-House was the means of building strong social capital among Black residents which impacted generations. In addition to the Pack-House, the Grigsby home (although updated) is unique in that it has been owned continuously by the same African American family since at least 1900. To her knowledge, there is nothing like it in Holly Springs.
Holly Springs was incorporated in 1877. From a town of less than a thousand people in 1990, it grew to a population of 24,661 in 2010 and now there are more than 44,555 people (and counting) living here. Many of the town’s historical structures are already gone. Larry Dewar said, “We are losing so much so fast.” But a few, like the Pack-House and Grigsby home, remain as evidence of times past. Will we lose them too, or should they be saved, if the opportunity is there to do so? In this case, only time will tell.
For now, at least we can share some stories with one another and recognize the contributions these places had in shaping our town and supporting its citizens. Let’s not forget the past but use these memories in all their shapes to help us to form good ideas on how to have a great future together.
Sincere thanks and deeply felt gratitude to everyone who agreed to be interviewed for this article and for all of the wonderful stories shared and perspective gained.
